Coming Round Again

Memory Dali

plus ça change, plus c’est la même chose

Once upon a time there was a war. When the war was over, several countries were in shambles and needed rebuilding and there were refugees all over who needed a home. As one of the basically untouched on its own soil, the US got the lion’s share of cleaning up a lot of the mess. Of course it also got a lot of the wealth and power to go with it which was a good thing since rebuilding nations is really, really expensive. Now courtesy of an unnecessary invasion by the US, there is a big chunk of geography that needs fixing. Of course the question is: Who will do it? Who will pay for it?

Japanese Occupation and Reconstruction
Marshall Plan
Displaced Persons

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About Jamie

Retired Writer Editor - Loves Books, Musical Theater, politics for a good argument, genealogy, Scotland and owls
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51 Responses to Coming Round Again

  1. Jamie says:

    From Patd on previous thread: from http://www.bloomberg.com/politics/articles/2015-11-16/obama-says-republican-calls-for-refugee-religious-test-shameful
    President Barack Obama said suggestions that the U.S. impose a religious test on Syrian refugees are “shameful” and un-American, lashing out at Republican presidential candidates, including Jeb Bush and Ted Cruz, who have called for accepting Christians from the region rather than Muslims.

    “That’s not American. That’s not who we are,” Obama said, responding to a question at a news conference Monday at the Group of 20 summit in Antalya, Turkey. “We don’t have religious tests to our compassion.”
    [….]
    “When I hear folks say that maybe we should just admit the Christians but not the Muslims, when I hear political leaders suggesting that there would be a religious test for which person who’s fleeing from a war-torn country is admitted, when some of those folks themselves come from families who benefited from protection when they were fleeing political persecution, that’s shameful,” Obama said.

    Like

  2. patd says:

    today, they shout “let only christian refugees in, not muslims”
    tomorrow, they will call for internment camps for those who are here….

    remember this from 2011 by
    Rep. Michael Honda, D-California, is senior Democratic whip and a member of House Budget and Appropriations Committees http://www.cnn.com/2011/OPINION/06/15/honda.king.muslim.hearings/index.html

    Who would have thought that my early childhood experience in a Japanese-American internment camp during World War II would offer such useful insight, 65 years later, in determining the direction America is headed? In reflecting on this week’s second round of Muslim radicalization hearings, planned by New York Rep. Peter King, I feel as if a mirror is being held up to my life, giving value to lessons learned as a child.
    [….]
    We look back, as a nation, and we know this was wrong. We look back and know that this was a result of “race prejudice, war hysteria and a failure of political leadership.” We look back and know that an entire ethnicity was said to be, and ultimately considered, the enemy. We know that internment happened because few in Washington were brave enough to say “no.”

    We know all this, and yet our country is now, within my lifetime, repeating the same mistakes from our past. The interned 4-year-old in me is crying out for a course correction so that we do not do to others what we did unjustly to countless Japanese-Americans.

    This time, instead of creating an ethnic enemy, Rep. King is creating a religious enemy. Because of prejudice, war hysteria and a failure of Republican leadership, King is targeting the entire Muslim-American community. Similar to my experience, they are become increasingly marginalized and isolated by our policies.

    Never mind that many were born in America and have no allegiance to their ancestors’ native homeland. Never mind that they are patriotic Americans and law-abiding citizens. Never mind that they are constructively contributing to the American economy. Regardless of all this, millions of Americans have become the new enemy, with no cause and no crime.

    Like

  3. patd says:

    from https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/republican-governors-and-candidates-move-to-keep-muslim-migrants-out/2015/11/16/17adafaa-8c7c-11e5-baf4-bdf37355da0c_story.html?hpid=hp_hp-top-table-high_gopmuslims-755pm%3Ahomepage%2Fstory

    Lavinia Limón, president and chief executive of the U.S. Committee for Refugees and Immigrants, said she is surprised that the once-nonpartisan cause of helping refugees fleeing violence has become so politicized.
    “The definition of a refugee is someone fleeing oppression. They’re fleeing terrorism,” she said. “They’ve experienced what happened in Paris on a daily basis.”
    […]
    Trump on Monday urged federal law enforcement officials to implement heavy surveillance of mosques and said he would consider closing Islamic places of worship as president.

    Like

  4. Flatus says:

    It is much easier to trust our neighbors who have been fully assimilated into the American mainstream. This probably takes three or four generations and involves intermarriage, etc.. Having common language (English) fluency is essential in the process.

    For those arriving through Ellis Island, their first step towards assimilation was often when the immigration officer phonetically Americanized their names.

    Like

  5. rebelliousrenee says:

    patd… thanks for that video of Maher’s interview on the Colbert Show… it’s on much too late for me.

    “Who will pay for it?”
    Not us… it’s not the 40s or the 50s any longer. It’s not likely that we’d be building factories over here again because of rebuilding a country or a region. Methinks the rich Middle Eastern countries (hint, hint… Saudi Arabia & Kuwait come to mind) had best step up to do their part. I seriously think that the cultural and religious complications to rebuilding the ME are beyond us.

    Like

  6. Jamie says:

    Great video example of great parenting: They have guns but we have flowers. https://www.facebook.com/jrous92/videos/10156190732035487/

    Like

  7. Tony says:

    Hillary Clinton’s Best Asset Is Also Her Greatest Liability
    Her answers at the Des Moines debate revealed a fluency with complicated global challenges. But can Democrats forgive her Iraq vote?
    By Joan Walsh
    http://www.thenation.com/article/hillary-clintons-best-asset-is-also-her-greatest-liability/

    Like

  8. jacew2003 says:

    Jamie,

    It’s hard to say who will rebuild those countries. It is easy to say who won’t. The US.

    Much of our political class seems to regard a few measly tax dollars to rebuild our own country as heresy. We argue only over the size and beneficiaries of tax cuts.

    Rebuilding out the rubble that we have created is simply never factored into the equation.

    Like

  9. blueINdallas says:

    I don’t think a religious test is even legal, is it? If not, then the GOP candidates whipping up fear by suggesting such a thing are not fit to serve this country and should remove themselves from the race.

    I would like to know who is buying the oil from the oilfields ISIS has taken over. I would like to know if they support ISIS’ motive and in buying the oil, gain something more than oil. I would like to know how that money is then used to buy weapons, vehicles, etc. I would like to know what our intelligence agencies are doing to uncover this so their financial support dries up. I would like to know if Obama and that impotent fop, Kerry, realize their may have made ISIS stronger by going after Assad and having weak diplomatic skills. I would like to know if Hillary realizes that while diplomacy with some states to gather support against ISIS is beneficial, that you can’t actually negotiate with ISIS. (Based on a statement she made in the debate about diplomacy with regard to ISIS, and mostly because of her continued defense of Obama’s foreign policy, I feel that she is in no way capable of being Commander In Chief. I can not now, in good conscience, vote for her if she is the nominee. I likely will not vote at all, as I don’t know how one could do a write-in vote with the voting machines.)

    After 9/11, I went to several church services and candlelight vigils. Pastor Lee spoke of his grandparents being in an internment camp and how damaging fear can be.

    So, let’s make sure we do our part to help displaced people, as there will be more and more of them. We can do that and make sure those we allow in are not a danger to our society. Both of those things can happen; the false arguement that politicians are making (and the media is spotlighting) is just adding to the problem.

    Like

    • Tony says:

      I understand and agree with much of your comment. Some of Hillary’s support of President Obama is politics and i except that. Hillary is not going to do an Al Gore and distance herself from the President she served as it would be stupid politically.. Hillary needs the Obama coalition to win and dissing the man on top of what Republican’s already do would be political suicide.. It’s your vote so it’s totally up to you whether you choose to cast it.. I myself was very unhappy with Obama in 2008 and almost didn’t vote but in the end the Supreme Court is what’s important so vote for Obama i did..

      Like

  10. patd says:

    aren’t some (if not all) of the Syrian refugees being vetted to come here those that are in jordanian camps and only those that registered with the unhcr?… there are over 600,000 in camps there. didn’t we promise jordan to help out (in exchange for certain military advantages)?

    btw, did we vet and shouldn’t we be vetting refugees from cuba… remember the marielitos… according to http://www.arktimes.com/arkansas/1980-crisis-at-ft-chaffee/Content?oid=964922 Refugees of Castro’s infamous Muriel Boatlift, over 19,000 Cubans were detained at Fort Chaffee. and remember the conspiracy theories about Cuban spies.

    what audacity and hypocrisy! http://www.miaminewtimes.com/news/rep-ileana-ros-lehtinen-who-fled-cuba-says-syrian-refugees-should-be-thoroughly-vetted-8056472

    Like

  11. patd says:

    transcript from http://www.pbs.org/newshour/bb/sanders-turning-our-backs-on-refugees-destroys-the-idea-of-america/
    GWEN IFILL: The other thing that’s happened since the Paris attacks is what appears to be a pretty strong, in this country especially, anti-refugee backlash, many, many governors saying, no, not in my state.
    What’s your response to that?

    SEN. BERNIE SANDERS: I disagree.
    Look, when we talk about terrorism, what it’s really about is the terrorists trying to instill fear and terror in ourselves. And I’m hearing some people talking, well, maybe we will close down mosques, maybe we won’t let Muslims into this country, maybe we will turn our back on hundreds of thousands of people who have been destroyed,whose lives have been destroyed by terrorism, who have had to flee Syria, have to flee Afghanistan.
    Now, it goes without saying that we need to have a very, very strong screening process to make sure that those people who come into this country deserve to be in this country, that they are not terrorists. I think that we can do that.
    And I will tell you something else, that if we turn our backs on those people, you know, I think in — almost, in a way, we will be — we will be under — we will be destroying what this country is supposed to be about.
    Throughout our history, we have welcomed people who were in trouble.
    So, screening, yes, but turning our backs on people whose lives have been so affected by the war in Syria and Afghanistan, I don’t think that’s appropriate.

    GWEN IFILL: In your statement, you described this as Islamophobia and racism. Strong words.

    SEN. BERNIE SANDERS: Right.

    GWEN IFILL: Do you want to name names about who is guilty of that?

    SEN. BERNIE SANDERS: Oh, sure. It’s no great secret.
    A few months ago, Donald Trump said about people from Mexico that they are criminals and they’re rapists. Well, that’s — you know, and now we’re talking Trump and others are talking about, well, maybe we will close down mosques.
    Last I heard, we had a Constitution in this country which gave all of our people the right of religious freedom, you know? And then I’m hearing other people saying, well, you know, we may have to undermine the Constitution in terms of civil liberties.
    When we do all of those things, then, in fact, the terrorists win without having to explode a bomb in America. We’re undermining what we stand for as a country.
    I understand that people are frightened. What we saw in Paris was disgusting, was horrible, was barbaric. But we are a strong enough nation to say we’re not going to lose who we are as a people, that we’re going to protect our Constitution, we’re going to protect religious freedom, and we’re not going to turn our backs on women and children who have been thrown out of their own countries with the shirts on their backs.
    Yes, we’re going to open our doors, but we are going to screen. That’s my view.

    GWEN IFILL: Just today, the speaker of the House, Paul Ryan, Jeb Bush, and even Chuck Schumer have all said that perhaps we should consider a pause in accepting refugees into this country.

    SEN. BERNIE SANDERS: Well, I think we have to have a very, very effective screening mechanism.

    Like

  12. Tony says:

    Latino voters’ views of Republican Party plummet significantly relative to 2012
    By Kerry Eleveld
    http://www.dailykos.com/stories/2015/11/16/1450702/-Latino-voters-views-of-Republican-Party-plummet-significantly-relative-to-2012

    Like

  13. patd says:

    from http://wonkette.com/596129/moderate-john-kasich-only-wants-to-bring-back-the-crusades-a-little-bit

    We have to say, we never saw this one coming. In the race to see who could come up with the most insane, unconstitutional proposal in reaction to the Paris massacre, our money was on the obvious favorites, Ben Carson and Donald Trump. And while they both made predictably stupid comments, we never would have expected the worst idea of all would spring from the “moderate” mind of Ohio Gov. John Kasich.

    Here’s how John Kasich, as president, will defeat ISIS: He’s going to focus foreign policy on promoting “Judeo-Christian values” and create a brand new agency that will be a bit like the Voice of America, only instead of beaming American jazz beyond the Iron Curtain, it’ll be responsible for Judeo-Christianizing the rest of the world, especially in the lands currently controlled by the Mahommedans. Then once we’ve brought Judeo-Christianity to the heathens, they’ll see that there’s no way like the American Way.

    Maybe Kasich got tired of being called “the reasonable one” and decided that if Crazy Talk is what’s selling this year, he may as well go all in.

    [….] the as-yet unnamed agency. (“Ministry of Truth” has a nice ring to it, we think.)

    Like

  14. rebelliousrenee says:

    Gee… politics is played by ALL politicians… no matter their party, ethnicity, or gender.
    Who woulda thunk it. A presidential candidate has to win the nomination of their party before they can actually mount a campaign for the presidency. I expect BS from everyone. I’m with Tony… I didn’t want to vote for Obama either… but in the end I did because I care about the future of this country and that means I care about the Supreme Court.

    Like

    • Tony says:

      Hey Renee
      You know what, we were correct, look at who Obama appointed to the Supreme Court! I’m proud of you and me, lol, ha ha

      Like

  15. rebelliousrenee says:

    Ya know…. I just had a thought…
    our fearless leader has a favorite saying… this too shall pass.

    Think I’ll apply it to today’s headlines.

    Like

  16. patd says:

    congress critters are calling for a “pause” bringing in Syrian refugees. perhaps to be humane they would consider in the meantime somehow accommodating (providing safe refuge, shelter, food, water for) those who already have been vetted and waiting rescue from present dire circumstances. the largest cruise ships hold about 4000 so it would take only 2-3 ships to house the promised 10,000. maybe leasing a few cruise ships anchored far asea enough away would satisfy those who suspect embedded sleeper moles.
    or, knowing this crop of critters, maybe they would prefer to put them in gitmo now that rooms are available there.

    Like

  17. patd says:

    fyi Refugee Arrivals for FY 2014 by State and Country of Origin
    http://www.acf.hhs.gov/programs/orr/resource/fiscal-year-2014-refugee-arrivals

    from http://www.ajc.com/news/news/national/paris-terror-how-do-refugees-get-america/npQYW/
    For those who do not want the refugees here, questions about the vetting process are front and center.
    The process is a long one and can take up to two years.
    Here’s a primer on just how refugees come into this country.

    Like

  18. patd says:

    blue, you asked some good questions that need answering: “I would like to know who is buying the oil from the oilfields ISIS has taken over. I would like to know if they support ISIS’ motive and in buying the oil, gain something more than oil. I would like to know how that money is then used to buy weapons, vehicles, etc. I would like to know what our intelligence agencies are doing to uncover this so their financial support dries up.” perhaps hrc heard you. looks like she’ll address that in part today.
    from http://blogs.wsj.com/washwire/2015/11/19/hillary-clinton-to-lay-out-strategy-against-islamic-state/
    …. her “overarching objectives.” He said she aims to defeat ISIS in Syria, Iraq and across the region; to “disrupt and dismantle the growing terrorist infrastructure” that facilitates the flow of fighters, money, arms and propaganda; and harden defenses in the U.S. and allied countries against both external and homegrown threats.

    Like

  19. Flatus says:

    A long time ago, up until the late ’50s, we had an Air Force presence in French Morocco. Our troops operated under the standard NATO status of forces agreement which was fine. When France was ‘invited’ to leave Morocco, our relationship with the Moroccan government was different–they demanded that our troops be subject to Sharia Law.

    No big deal. Our people were briefed and cautioned about the severity of the punishments. It was not long before one of our airmen was accused of stealing something while walking through a market. He was tried on the spot and found guilty. We were granted permission to anesthetize his wrist before the amputation. That ended our presence in North Africa.

    I’m sure the folks around here will recall that one of the factors hastening the withdrawal of our troops from Iraq was their refusal to extend the Status of Forces Agreement that protected them from Sharia Law.

    My bottom line is, refugees coming to our country should be eager and thrilled to accept the protections offered by our Bill of Rights including the protections against cruel and unusual punishment as interpreted by our Congress and accepted by our Courts. No way should they have any expectation that Religious Freedom extends to Sharia Law.

    Like

  20. Jamie says:

    Almost unbelievable speaking engagement by Hillary Clinton. I don’t know if she was using a teleprompter, but with or without one, it was impressive

    http://www.c-span.org/video/?400960-1/hillary-clinton-national-security-address

    Like

  21. Flatus says:

    Hillary’s speech going on now before the Council on Foreign Relations reflects her excellent grasp of the very complex situation revolving around the Middle East and affecting the rest of us. Very pragmatic–points fingers at Turkey and Iran et alia.

    Like

  22. katherinegrahamcracker says:

    Glen Greenwald pretty much called the main stream media –administration asslickers

    Like

  23. patd says:

    some hi-lights of what she said from http://www.huffingtonpost.com/entry/hillary-clinton-isis_564df0cfe4b00b7997f9799f

    “Local people and nations have to secure their own communities,” she said. “We can help them, and we should, but we cannot substitute for them. … Our increased support should go hand in hand with increased support from Arab partners.”
    [….] She said she did not believe that the U.S. should “again have 100,000 troops in combat in the Middle East,” distinguishing the fight against the Islamic State group from the simultaneous wars the U.S. fought in Iraq and Afghanistan.

    Clinton said she believed more Iraqi Sunnis needed to join the fight against ISIS, but acknowledged that wouldn’t happen “if they don’t feel like they have a stake in their country.” She argued that the U.S. needed to “lay the foundation for a second Sunni awakening” by putting pressure on the Iraqi government to reconcile with the country’s various factions, embrace arming Sunnis and Kurds and “get its political house in order.”

    She added that the U.S. and its allies should arm Sunnis and Kurds directly if the Iraqis refused to. Such a move would be a big step away from what the Obama administration has been doing in Iraq. Currently, weapons sent to fight extremists in Iraq are routed through the central government in Baghdad, rather than being sent directly to the country’s more U.S.-friendly Kurdistan region.
    [….]
    The U.S. also needs to do a better job of persuading Arab countries like Saudi Arabia to stop financing extremist networks and make other countries “police their own banks” to cut off ISIS’s revenue sources, Clinton said.

    Like

  24. patd says:

    Donald Trump isn’t ruling out requiring all Muslims living in the U.S. to register in a national database to protect the country against terrorism.
    Trump, who also said this week that he would consider shutting down mosques,..
    http://edition.cnn.com/2015/11/19/politics/donald-trump-barack-obama-threat-to-country/index.html

    sounds familiar…. oh yeah, hitler’s little registry program

    Like

  25. katherinegrahamcracker says:

    Sounds familiar internment of Japanese Americans

    Like

  26. Flatus says:

    Just heard an NPR interview of one of my HS classmates from Solebury School in New Hope, PA. Mira Nakashima, daughter of famed furniture maker, the late George Nakashima. She’s now artistic director of the firm.

    She spoke of the experience of living under internment saying, in essence, that she still feels its effects through loss of confidence and related issues.

    We shared classes, including anthropology. So far as I can recall, she was bright, sociable, dated, and was well-liked by the other kids. Just another one of us.

    Like

  27. Jamie says:

    Dr. Seuss Political cartoons

    Like

  28. patd says:


    be sure to click at 5:10 min in
    Bush insisted that refugees should be able to easily prove they’re Christians, but he simply shrugged and repeated himself when asked exactly how they would do that.
    “If you want to know if somebody is Christian, just ask them to complete this sentence,” Colbert said, quoting from Matthew 25:35. “Jesus said I was hungry, and you gave me something to eat. I was thirsty, and you gave me something to drink. I was a stranger and you — and if they don’t say welcomed me in, they are either a terrorist or they are running for president.”

    Like

  29. rebelliousrenee says:

    Ya know… I really thought this country had learned something from history… wtf was I thinking…
    (shaking my head from all the hate mongering going on)…

    Like

  30. Tony says:

    The Farce Awakens
    Paul Krugman
    http://www.nytimes.com/2015/11/20/opinion/republican-refugee-panic-fits-a-pattern.html?ref=opinion&_r=0
    “The context also explains why Beltway insiders were so foolish when they imagined that the Paris attacks would deflate Donald Trump’s candidacy, that Republican voters would turn to establishment candidates who are serious about national security.

    Who, exactly, are these serious candidates? And why would the establishment, which has spent years encouraging the base to indulge its fears and reject nuance, now expect that base to understand the difference between tough talk and actual effectiveness?

    Sure enough, polling since the Paris attack suggests that Mr. Trump has actually gained ground.

    The point is that at this point panic is what the right is all about, and the Republican nomination will go to whoever can most effectively channel that panic. Will the same hold true in the general election? Stay tuned.”

    Like

  31. Tony says:

    Palin: President Trump ‘a very real possibility’
    By Eliza Collins

    Read more: http://www.politico.com/story/2015/11/sarah-palin-donald-trump-216115#ixzz3s4mzEW4d

    Like

  32. Tony says:

    Virginia Mosque Meeting Gets Ugly: ‘Every One of You Are Terrorists!’
    by Andrew Husband
    http://www.mediaite.com/tv/virginia-mosque-meeting-gets-ugly-every-one-of-you-are-terrorists/

    Like

  33. blueINdallas says:

    Muslim communities are already pushing for Sharia law as religious freedom, even when it stands in opposition to the supreme law of the land.
    Even when I see that real estate add with the Muslim realtors stating they follow Sharia law (in this instance it’s the financial angle), it feels not like something that’s simply their religious tradition. Maybe, because I have so many Muslim neighbors, it feels a bit scary. I live in a very diverse area; most of my immediate neighbors are here on work visas. The Muslim women look dissaprovingly at non-Muslim women, and most are quite rude when you try to exchange pleasantries.
    There is not a lot of “melting” in general down here. I sat next to my friend’s mother at dinner and was surprised that she spoke almost no English. She came here from Mexico as a teenager; she lived into her 90s and never learned English. My friend spoke only Spanish until she was 4. Her dad lost his vision and his job, so she was sent to “the home” (orphanage) to be raised by nuns. She left speaking English.
    My great-grandmother came here from Denmark when she was about 14. She learned English and refused to speak Danish in front of her children. I think it’s a different mindset in this area. My hometown was a Danish settlement and I heard Danish spoken exactly one time.

    I’ve tried to learn Danish in the past, and my most recent attempt has been more successful. For anyone wanting to learn another language, there is a free app called Duolingo. (I do think we need a common language of the land, but it would be beneficial if everyone spoke two or more languages.)

    PatD- I also want to know who paid for the plane tickets for the “Syrian refugees” caught in Honduras with fake passports. They took a very circuitous route to get there. Those plane tickets weren’t cheap, so it’s doubtful those men were refugees. Why didn’t Brazil or any other country they travelled through catch them?

    Like

    • patd says:

      blue, not only the mystery of who pays for tickets, but how about who is selling/supplying them all those trucks, uniforms, electronics, and cell phone contracts? must be some way to ferret out this info and to publish the enablers’ names/companies/countries… and to shame them publically on a global stage.

      Like

  34. whskyjack says:

    “No way should they have any expectation that Religious Freedom extends to Sharia Law.”
    Why not? it does for Kosher. Also for the Amish and their religious regulations.

    Like

    • Jamie says:

      These anti-Sharia remarks always bother me. I can understand forbidding cultural practices that are in direct contradiction to US laws such as honor killings, but extreme branches of Mohammedanism aren’t going to get murdering family members into the law books any time soon. Everything else deals with food, family, and business and would be similar to Orthodox Jews who take issues of the sort to a Beth Din https://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/Judaism/BetDin.html rather than relying on the court system.

      Like

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